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Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 8,159
Registered: ‎08-18-2008

Re: How long do you want live? 80, 90, 100?

[ Edited ]
Message 71 of 85 (3,710 Views)

ASTRAEA wrote:

There has to be something missing or inaccurate in that story, because as long as someone can communicate in some way, they can reverse any directives they've put in place previously. So there's no reason he couldn't have asked for the feeding tube to be removed.

Although my Mom had a DNR in place, when she was at the end of her battle with cancer, she requested to be taken to the hospital, when she was unable to breath .. and that superceded what she had in her DNR.


I don't know all the legalees about the situation but it was something about that he had no other way to get water or the liquid stuff that was the food.  IOW, they could not starve him to death.

 

For a person under hospice, who is close to death, the sedation that they give them at the end should keep them from awakening with that smothering, panic feeling.    She may not have been to that point. When they get to that point, there is a stronger pack of meds that are started to keep them asleep; it would be terrible if they awoke.

 

My mother had a DNR in place, posted many places, and was on hospice.  While in the nursing home, wheeling about in a wheel chair, her heart stopped beating and she got blue.  They put her on the floor, did CPR, gave her oxygen and then back to the hospital the EMS took her.  I was very upset so were the ER staff.  She did not stay in the hospital and I got her out of that nursing home as fast as I could.

 

Treasured Social Butterfly
Posts: 19,203
Registered: ‎12-25-2011

Re: How long do you want live? 80, 90, 100?

Message 72 of 85 (3,688 Views)
GailL1 wrote: 

.. I knew a man (mid 70's) that had to have a feeding tube put in because of the deteriorization of his esophagus from radiation.  His doctor &  family encouraged him to have it, as I am sure many would do,  but he was already in a very weaken state from previous treatment.  After he had had it for about a month, he told them this was not gonna work and said to put him under hospice care because he wanted to let go, mind, body and soul.  He told them after he had the tube put in, he did not realize what life effects it would have on him.

 

So now hospice was put into a bad situation since he already had the feeding tube.  They could not withhold liquids and nurishment since the tube was already there.  He was miserable. ..


There has to be something missing or inaccurate in that story, because as long as someone can communicate in some way, they can reverse any directives they've put in place previously. So there's no reason he couldn't have asked for the feeding tube to be removed.

Although my Mom had a DNR in place, when she was at the end of her battle with cancer, she requested to be taken to the hospital, when she was unable to breath .. and that superceded what she had in her DNR.


Registered on Online Community since 2007!
Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 8,159
Registered: ‎08-18-2008

Re: How long do you want live? 80, 90, 100?

Message 73 of 85 (3,678 Views)

ASTRAEA wrote:
retiredtraveler wrote:

   Unfortunately, not much to discuss. If assisted suicide were legal, then we'd have something.


If you want to read more on the movement to allow for assisted suicide, check out Compassion & Choices: https://www.compassionandchoices.org/

One thing I didn't like in the article, was the section about Dr. Emanuel, saying he wouldn't seek treatment after 75. That sounds like a comment made by someone at least 30 years ago, because I know a lot of 75 year olds who are as vital & healthy, as someone 90 years old years ago! I totally understand the idea of refusing treatment, but it has to be based on an individual's situation, not any hard and fast rules based on age or cost. That's why people are so concerned about any medical/insurance program that decides whether they're "worth the cost" to treat! 


I think sometimes Dr. Emanuel says things for their shock value.  However, I believe what he was saying is that if the person has already made up their mind about NOT being treated or even change their lifestyle for whatever condition that might be found after any age, then why even look for it. 

 

Yes, the decision is up to each person and even if the decision is made in this regards, a time also has to be determined - his was 75 for when you just don't care to find anything for which the treatment would change the rest of your life so drastically that it wouldn't be what you wanted.

 

It seems to me that it also has a lot to do with the autonomy changes too.  Some treatments take a whole lot out of a person - enough to where they may never go back to what they once were, even considering age or even anyplace close to it.

 

I knew a man (mid 70's) that had to have a feeding tube put in because of the deteriorization of his esophagus from radiation.  His doctor &  family encouraged him to have it, as I am sure many would do,  but he was already in a very weaken state from previous treatment.  After he had had it for about a month, he told them this was not gonna work and said to put him under hospice care because he wanted to let go, mind, body and soul.  He told them after he had the tube put in, he did not realize what life effects it would have on him.

 

So now hospice was put into a bad situation since he already had the feeding tube.  They could not withhold liquids and nurishment since the tube was already there.  He was miserable.

 

He was so small and frail that he became bedridden and with that came the onset of pneumonia - he was on hospice so no efforts were made to reverse the course of it - no oxygen, no antibiotics - they did still feed him, they gave him pain and anxiety meds either via the tube or an injection and they cared for his custodial needs to be clean and moved until he died.

 

Yes, the decision has to be up to each and every one. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Treasured Social Butterfly
Posts: 19,203
Registered: ‎12-25-2011

Re: How long do you want live? 80, 90, 100?

Message 74 of 85 (3,664 Views)
retiredtraveler wrote:

   Unfortunately, not much to discuss. If assisted suicide were legal, then we'd have something.


If you want to read more on the movement to allow for assisted suicide, check out Compassion & Choices: https://www.compassionandchoices.org/

One thing I didn't like in the article, was the section about Dr. Emanuel, saying he wouldn't seek treatment after 75. That sounds like a comment made by someone at least 30 years ago, because I know a lot of 75 year olds who are as vital & healthy, as someone 90 years old years ago! I totally understand the idea of refusing treatment, but it has to be based on an individual's situation, not any hard and fast rules based on age or cost. That's why people are so concerned about any medical/insurance program that decides whether they're "worth the cost" to treat! 


Registered on Online Community since 2007!
Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 8,159
Registered: ‎08-18-2008

Re: How long do you want live? 80, 90, 100?

Message 75 of 85 (3,668 Views)
I think there is so much more to the article, retiredtraveler, for the elderly as well as to those for whom may end up making decisions in the matter.

I already have a very stringent Healthcare Directive. Well, as stringent as the law in my state allows the choices. I want my family to really understand the autonomy issue ; I think they do but it is worth emphasizing often.

BTW, there are some states (5) that do allow a person to make the choice if terminally ill. It is called "Death With Dignity". In the news recently with the planned and carried out death of Brittany Maynard. Problem is, the way I understand it, you have to be lucid and coherent to make the decision at that time. Sometimes you might not be. Especially since incurable or gradual loss of autonomy has never been considered a terminal condition. Should it be?

Some links just FYI.
http://time.com/3551560/brittany-maynard-right-to-die-laws/

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/civilrights/understanding/Section1553/




Trusted Social Butterfly
Posts: 6,867
Registered: ‎02-14-2008

Re: How long do you want live? 80, 90, 100?

Message 76 of 85 (8,001 Views)

"...After reading it, we can discuss it, if you like....".

 

   Unfortunately, not much to discuss. If assisted suicide were legal, then we'd have something.


“The world is a book. Those who do not travel read only one page.”
Valued Social Butterfly
Posts: 8,159
Registered: ‎08-18-2008

Re: How long do you want live? 80, 90, 100?

[ Edited ]
Message 77 of 85 (7,941 Views)
I am posting this link here to a very thought provoking article by health care reporter, Sarah Kliff.

After reading it, we can discuss it, if you like.
Personally, I am thinking about printing it out and giving it to my family members who hold my Health care directive powers. I want them to understand the subject of this article and we will have further discussions about it.

Here is the link
VOX 01/11/2015 How Americans' refusal to talk about death hurts the elderly by Sarah Kliff
http://www.vox.com/2015/1/11/7517211/end-of-life-care


Conversationalist
Posts: 13
Registered: ‎09-17-2008

Re: How long do you want live? 80, 90, 100?

[ Edited ]
Message 78 of 85 (8,058 Views)

ASTRAEA wrote:

So the longer people live, in general, the greater the probability of their genes becoming defective, which is why we're seeing more people get various forms of cancer as they age!


Didn't need to know that. j/k Smiley Wink

 

I know it doesn't work this way but..........

My father passed away at 62 and mother at 90. If I split the difference I have 5 years left.

 

I agree with what you wrote earlier....as long as I can do the things I want or need to do.....Life is Good!

 

 Blaine

(the Voltran thing is from years ago when I did Voltranic Syndicated News & Reviews)

 

Treasured Social Butterfly
Posts: 19,203
Registered: ‎12-25-2011

Re: How long do you want live? 80, 90, 100?

Message 79 of 85 (8,073 Views)

I learned something very interesting last fall, about genes. I thought that you were born with genes, and they were either OK or not. If they weren't, you might be born with some disease, or develop it later in life. I never realized that genes could mutate or become defective, as we age! So certain genes protect us against cancer or other diseases .. but if they mutate/become defective, they no longer protect us! So the longer people live, in general, the greater the probability of their genes becoming defective, which is why we're seeing more people get various forms of cancer as they age!


Registered on Online Community since 2007!
Conversationalist
Posts: 13
Registered: ‎09-17-2008

Re: How long do you want live? 80, 90, 100?

Message 80 of 85 (8,075 Views)

ASTRAEA wrote:

I don't have any number in mind; I just want to be healthy & functional .. and die fast, when that's no longer the case.


You said it best for me!